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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:47 am

i have come to a point in my life where i am worried about The Line you know the one which should not really be crossed, i am currently going through some serious issues and i had only just found where i was going so i am now concerned that The Line is gonna be way to easy for me to cross, especially as i dont see it anymore all i see is a big pool of grey.

i think i will now just state who i have become in the past 2 years.

i was an angry man that crossed paths with magic a few times eventually with the help of a sudden realisation i found a certain amount of peace with who i was and i dont get angry that much but through the past few days i have passed the being purely peaceful and i realised that even though causing hurt to someone is wrong it is sometimes neccesary, this has led me to question something i once swore on to myself that being i would never hurt anyone through magic.

if someone really deserves it isnt it the right thing to do to at least show them the error of what they have done i mean im not talking real bad black magic but more like showing them that they have done wrong and they can change.

so back to The Line

would i cross this supposed line by doing what i said i would do above am i a bad person for doing it or is there really no line just a big puddle of grey

those that know whats happening at the moment will probably not be suprised by this but for anyone else i suppose it will be interesting to get some different responses

The Line

a barrier we shouldnt cross or a big puddle of grey we can paddle in when the time calls for it
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Jaska
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:55 am

i think there is no line. nor a puddle, but it is stiil 'grey'
if someone was killing people, he doesnt want to, but something he does not understand drives him to do so, eg a bloodlust, does that make them a bad person?
or if a child is swearing or punching someone, if doing that as an adult means they are a bad person that can be imprisonned for agressiveness, then does this make them a bad persone as a child, even though he does not fully understand the terms of cause and effect?


Quote :
if someone really deserves it isnt it the right thing to do to at least show them the error of what they have done i mean im not talking real bad black magic but more like showing them that they have done wrong and they can change.

even if there was a line, i dont think that this would cross it anyway. there is a difference between revenge and reasoning with someone, by any means.


.... and im done!
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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:58 am

Personally, I think the line is relative and everyone's line will be in different places on different issues.

From a moral perspective, two wrongs don't make a right

From a magical perspective, what you send out comes back to you threefold.

From a karmic perspective, the person will get what's coming to them.

I think what you really have to ask yourself, is, is that the person that you want to be and if so, who are you that you can stand in judgement and hand out punishment (I'm talking in general here and not to you in person).

This is just my opinion, but i have a long history with anger and it took a lot of effort and self healing to conquer it. I never want to go back to being that angry vengeful person again.

I obviously don't know you, but just from what I have read of your posts here, I don't think you're a person who wants to get involved in a revenge type scenario. The mere fact that you posted this, means that you are conflicted about it and I say to you then, if you're in doubt, don't do it.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:02 am

im not talking about standing in judgment and handing out punishment im talking about showing a person where thir life has led and aiding them in the right direction

e.g. a man beats his wife repeatedly and gets away with it i would help his wife turn around a beat him only the once, so he could see how it feels and what he has put her through.

a moral and magical lesson if you will
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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:06 am

Thats all very well then, but are you going to do it by talking to them or by doing magic or spells to 'show them'?

To use your example, I can tell you, from experience in my past, that if the wife in question did that, she'd get even worse from her husband in return.
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:37 am

It is grey since you provide no specifics. If you want specific advice I'd recommend you give specific details as a general question will only end up with general answers that I feel may be little or no use to you since you are obviously seeking something very specific. Smile
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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:46 pm

I think Ook has a good point.

IMHO, (with the example you gave) I see your point, but unless the woman asked you to, you are violating her free will. Whether it is a good thing or not, it is her choice to stand up for herself or not. If she beat her husband, how would she look at herself afterwards? Whatever the husband took from the experience, the wife would have to live with the fact that she had become everything she feared in her husband, that she had become the abuser. If she did not ask for help in such a form it could be incredibley confusing and harmful to her and her state of mind. Like Satyr said, she would probably get even worse from her husband.

Whatever the situation is, I'm not sure magick is the best way to go. This is not coming from any moral argument, and whether it'sokay to cross the line or wade in the puddle or whatever, I just think that it's kinda risky. Spells are tricky creatures and something this delicate would be nearly impossible to pull off without doing something right out the other side of the puddle completely, or risking having bad effects for others. Remeber, whatever you do to this person whoever he/she is, will affect their friends, family, anyone who is in anyway witness to anything that might happen, in some way, no matter how small. And these things have a tendancy to ripple. Can you honestly say that whatever it is you are planning, even if it's just to give this person a nasty shock, will not risk making others suffer. If it will you have to ask yourself if their pain is really worth it.

Obviously, it depends on the situation, so there's probably exceptions to this, but magick can go wrong in so many ways, usually the ones you don't expect. In most cases I wouldn't risk the backfire.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:13 pm

if i new this (the example) woman and man, i would be there for her and give her the strength and advice she needs to take whatever action, in the end teaching him what he did was wrong if that does cause pain to others close to them for something he did then there must be a good reason for it.

i dont think there is a line or any boundry i personally feel there is just knowing how far you can take something b4 it gets bad whether this makes me a bad person then you can be the judge of that.

i am my own person and have decided not to be the pacifist i was and not to take anything from anyone in anyform again, i will also be there to help if someone asks whether it be for advice or something more, if the truly needy want and deserve my help i will help. (theres always someone that gets hurt by our actions however small they are, the best we can hope for is to cause the least harm possable)
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Satyr
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:03 pm

Nosllew, I can understand you wanting to help and I think that is admirable, but i don't think that magic would be the right way to go.

If the situation you are talking about, does have anything to do with the example you gave, then I'm really worried. I have some personal experience in that area and if that is the problem you are trying to solve, you're welcome to pm me and discuss it. that type of situation can get VERY nasty.

Even if its something else and you don't want to discuss it here, feel free to pm me and if there's any advice or support I can give, I'll do it with pleasure.

Blessings
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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:33 am

Ditto Satyrs offer of help. You need anything, dude, you know you can always PM me.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:09 am

the example was only an example i was usieng this discussion to try and find where i am now in my life, i know magic is't the answer but if its an option and the only one i have then i will use it.

thank you for the offer of help i will remember it if the time comes

and aoife you have met me so you may have some preconceived ideas of who i am (im not saying youve judged me) i would like to know from what you have heard above to what you thought of me whle youve known me if i have changed at all or just woken up
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:04 am

I don't mean to sound like a broken record here but to get a specific answer you'll need to give specific details. As this is a personal issue I can understand if you do not want to divulge things here, after all it's a public forum. If you choose to post your specific problem here, at least you personally know most of the people here so you can be a ssured a frank and honest answer.

It's up to you in the end.
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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:11 am

Errr...here or in a PM???

That was supposed to be in reply to Nosllew - sorry Ook, I forgot to say who I was talking to. lol Smile


Last edited by Aoife on Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:42 am

Sorry Lizzie, I don't understand? I was just saying that it's up to Nosllew how he wants to proceed, either publically or privately (since you offered to help him by PM as well).
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:43 am

there is no actual issue so to speak i was just openly looking at myself and thoght about some things and how recent events have shook me a bit i am who i am and thats what i have come to realize if anyone has a question please do ask im not an easily embarresed person im a library book for anyone to borrow if you want to know just ask

again there is no problem im trying to help with just soul searching out loud
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:09 am

I hope you will not mind me sharing my own experiences of this. I am not saying it is the same for everyone.

Most of my life the road ahead has been difficult to see and even when life has felt absolutely certain or at least it has felt as though things are just ticking along, suddenly something will happen and the path changes. A buddhist friend of mine has often said that life is an illusion and I sometime ponder that statement. It is an interesting viewpoint and at times when life throws a curveball at you, I think this statement seems all the more understandable.

Whatever challenges you face us in life I always believe they are opportunities to grow as a person. Sometimes it takes more time than others, and is more painful than others, but it is still a chance to be better every time.

Wherever your soul searching takes you I hope it will lead you forwards in life and knowledge. Despite any differences we have had before, I mean this most sincerely.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:35 pm

thanks ook for sharing
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Logmadr
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:24 pm

In reply to your posts about showing someone else what they are doing wrongly with their life, what makes you judge, jury and executioner? If they are chosing to live their lives this way, butt out, in my honest opinion.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:03 pm

lol thx 4 yr opinion
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Storm MoonSong
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:46 pm

Nosllew.....
A few months ago, I posed a similiar question. I seemed lost and mired down in "getting even" and showing someone the error of their ways. Or...more to the point, my opinion of the error of their ways. Very wise people here in the Moot all shared their opinions with me and showed me, once again, that it isn't in my hands to prove to that person who and what they are. It is my place to leave it in the competant hands of the Gods and Goddesses to believe in them and know that "what goes around, comes around"
Remember Nosllew, you do something and it comes back on you 7 fold. Good, or bad. If what you persieve as good may be decided as not so good, do you want to be on the receiving end of good karma or bad karma?
Let Those who truly know be that person's judge and jury in the immortal words of Logmadr. *he truly is wise for someone so...um.......age challenged ...*smirks at loggyboy*
Trust me on this Nosllew, breathe. Take in your surroundings. Think on the subject matter for some time. If in the end you believe you are doing the right thing by judging someone else for their shortcomings, go ahead. But answer me this. Do you have scars on the backs of your hands? Or whip marks on your back? Or puncture marks in your skull from the crown of thorns placed on your head?
If the answer is yes, then by all means.......Judge that person and find them guilty.
*please no offense. Just trying to give you another perspective to think on*
Hugs and Brightest of blessings
Mama Storm
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:38 am

thank your as well for sharing but im not god so i dont walk around judging everything in sight as i said above if someone asks me for help and they truly need and deserve it then i will help
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Logmadr
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:41 am

Someone might ask you for help, but if it involves hurting someone else in the process of helping them, how can you justify that?
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:03 am

if someone said hi i need your help punch this person for me then i wouldnt but if someone said im being bullied can you help then yes i would

as i again have to say if someone truly needs and deserves it i will help
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Logmadr
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:37 am

So you WOULD deem it your personal right to decide who deserves to be smote because what you believe what they are doing is wrong?
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Jaska
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PostSubject: Re: The Line   Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:30 am

this seriously depends on the circumstances ¬_¬

(refer back to my first post)

Quote :
if it involves hurting someone else in the process of helping them, how can you justify that?
some love the greater good idea, some hate it.
as an example:
if 'A' was atacking and in the end going to kill 'B' , would you let 'B' get hurt? or would you just stand there, watch, let the attacker get away with it? the most likely ansewer would be to do something about it. either report on 'A' or to intervene yourself and ultimatly injuring (at least) 'A'.
what if B was your friend? what if A was your friend? in any case, one needs to choose the lesser of two evils (the higher being letting this person continue committing crimes, the lesser being hurting at minimum A)

Quote :
So you WOULD deem it your personal right to decide who deserves to be smote because what you believe what they are doing is wrong?

as i said, there is a difference between reasoning and revenge. if A had killed B, and you sought to kill A, then i would say that would be revenge. but to attack and show/say what they have done wrong, then leave them be after, i would call that reasoning. i would see nothing wrong with that. i see that everyone has a right to reasoning, but revenge would be too far. i dont think what nosllew is talking about is revenge, but reasoning.

again - it is all personal opinion. people have different ideas as to whats wrong and right, and if one can explain their reasoning to their wrong and right, then i say go with it.


ps:
Quote :
as i again have to say if someone truly needs and deserves it i will help
lets all take that further and into the extreme, become satainists and say we will take revenge on those who oppose us!!
(please dont take that seriously^_^; )
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