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Narada
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PostSubject: Any guarantees...?   Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:25 am

Hey everybody, my first topic (if you dont count the page in the 'introduce yourself' forum) pirate

I've always wondered how wiccan spells (I''m going to use the term Wicca but if it's a wrong term or I'm using it the wrong context I'm very sorry, do feel free to put me right) or indeed any such thing in general works. What I mean is, when one of the more accomplished spellcasters on the forum here, or indeed an amateur casts a spell, is there a guarantee it will work, or at least have an effect? I'm talking about any spells here, from this simplest love spell to the most complicated affair.

I'm just curious as to how one can guarantee that sort of thing, anyway I'm probably showing myself up to be a right rookie just by asking the question! But I thought here would be the best place to ask it.

Many thanks for reading all, I'm very interested in your opinions and answers Very Happy
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Logmadr
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:36 am

Welcome again Narada, don't worry not showing yourself up. And to put you right, as you so eloquently put it, Wicca is a branch of magic or witchcraft, but everyone, from pagans, mages, witches, herbalists and occultists do spells Smile

There is never a guarantee, but there is more of a chance it will work if you know what you're doing. For example, say you were doing a love spell (which is completely wrong in my opinion, free will is something you never mess with lol) then if you'd done one before, you know what you're doing to some degree.

If you want any help, let me know..

Also, learning from mistakes, learning how to improve the crafting and boundaries and limitation of the spell..

God I sound so fluffy, talking about spells! lol

Loggy
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:55 am

Welcome to the Moot, Narada!
You have come to one of the best places on the planet to learn!
The ONLY way a "rookie" can learn is from experienced people in different art forms!
No matter the age {looks around to piers of the "trade" most knowing what that look is all about!!!} You will find people experienced in all walks of magic in some form or another. The only way to learn is to jump right off into the deep end and start swimming.
The best bit of advise I can give at this point is to just start practicing. Some of the best advice I got when I started was "Believe in what you do, who you are and who you want to become" that my dear Narada is the best advise I received in my long years of practicing magic. We all have questions {as you can read if you go through the posts on here} even the most experienced of magic users have questions every now and again. In my experiences, the best of us should have questions. If there aren't any questions, your not doing it right! You will feel confident with some things, and not with others. That is when you use the tools of the trade...........OTHER MAGIC USERS! That is why this stuff works! We rely on each other when we can't do it ourselves. I've cast many many spells and I came upon a time not that long ago that my blessed Moot Family truly helped me through a tough time in my life. Because I wasn't confident in my own choices and path, I was able to ask for help without being arrogant thinking I could do it alone. Even though many of us call ourselves "loners" or "sole praticioner" we still need help at times.
Read..........learn..........trust in yourself and your good judgement....rely on those who know what they are speaking of.......HAVE FUN!
Brightest of Blessings to you young fledgling!
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:32 pm

Great question for a firts thread and as always, great advice given already. Smile

I've held back from posting until now as I have an unorthodox approach to this which may or may not be of use to you. To begin with I try to find scientific, repeatable approaches to everything (as much as possible anyway) and I also really cringe around the word 'magic' as I feel it is too wide and general a term with a lot of misconceptions built up over many millenia. Oh, I'm also not a pagan.

Saying that though, I believe in cause and effect and also believe that there are many sides to our lives, nature and the universe that are so far beyond current human understanding that we can only experiment blindly to a degree in seeing how we can interact with the 'unexplainable'. I think many Pagan practices have managed to focus certain causes with human interaction in effective ways to bring about effects that are outside current scientific knowledge so, coming back to what the other posters have said, practice and listening to others experiences can be a great help in your journey.

A basic ecplanation of my own theory is that everything has an energy signature of some sort, in addition to our life energiies, exisiting in a sea of energy. I believe that our own energies, when focused in a certain manner, can bring about very definite effects depending on a combination of physical objects, environmental conditions and the level of concentration, belief and focus that is practiced by a person.

A non-traditional approach but I hope it helps. Smile
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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:33 pm

Ooooh.... Interesting one. Great reading everyone's replies too.

Personally I like to think of a spell as a combination of two things - energy and intention. The energy is the substance of the spell, the fuel, what makes it go, andthe intention is the purpose, the idea behind it, the direction, what the spell is supposed to do. Which makes a spell kind of like any other action in life. Like trying to pick up a mug off a table. You use energy to work your muscles, and intention to aim to grip the handle and lift.

However there is no guarantee this will work. You might not use enough energy (ie - the mug might be too heavy, or the spell too 'weak' to effect something large) or perhaps your intention might be flawed (ie - you missed the handle and knock the mug over, or your spell misfires and effects the wrong thing). Or it could go wrong for a reason totally out of your control (ie - the handle drops off the mug, or as soon as your spell changes the situation, outside factors change it back. Sometimes these things just don't work.)

For whatever reason, no there is no guarantee a spell will work as many factors contribute to the situations in our lives. Spells being just one of them. However like anything else, if you don't try, it has no chance!

I tend to think of magick as a form of science that we haven't fully discovered yet and so is dismissed by many people. (Quantum mechanics and string theory do support the power of intention thing). As such, there are rules. Just no-one's quite sure exactly what they are yet. Smile


Last edited by LunarCraft on Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited by Logmadr: Intension = Intention and Affects = Effects lol)
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Narada
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:41 pm

Seriously Wow guys, these are some amazing answers. Thanks to all of you- do feel free to keep the ideas and theories coming, I'm loving it!

Ok, if you dont mind, I'll give each one a response in turn:

Basically what I'm getting from most (if not all) of you is that practice makes perfect, right? I can believe that, hopefully if and when I do eventually start i wont screw things up too badly in the beginning!

Logmadr: Great first reply thanks, and if you dont mind the only question I have for you is completely unrelated to the thread! Its about your love spell comment, and see I have heard that before (and I do agree free will shouldnt be manipulated) but I actually meant a spell like just something that would make someone generally more available and open to love, are there such spells in existance? Thanks =]

Storm MoonSong: First of all thank you for the lovely welcome, and also thank you for the advice, I'll certainly take it on board. I think I may have more questions than most unfortunately! you all seem a patiend bunch though thank heavens Very Happy

Ook and Aoife: What can I say but wow... I'm afraid some of the science has gone right past me, although I am trying haha. I do like the energy theory and interestingly I have heard that before, my old boss had something of a similar idea. I like the idea of 'energy' or 'magic' being a measurable force like gravity, temperature etc. How realistic that wish is I dont know though.

Once again thanks to everyone, do keep the answers coming I'm both stunned and fascinated by everyone's opinion Very Happy
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Logmadr
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:56 am

Spells may not been in existence yet,but to quote someone I don't remember, "We're The Tetragrammaton, There's Nothing We Can't Do!"...If there isn't a spell, write one.

But again, to make someone more open to love, is that not affecting their free-will? For example: someone had a bad trauma and was not looking for a relationship right now, but someone spelled them, they suddely wanted to love again, didn't grieve properly and it meant that they were emotionally scarred and stunted forevermore?

You gotta think about the WORST thing that could happen whenever you do a spell, because most of the time, it dosn't happen, and everything seems to rn a lot more smoothly. LOL

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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:02 am

Thanks Narada! Keep the questions coming - if nothing else, they prompt us to actually think about this stuff carefully enough to verbalise our views, which is always a good. Very Happy

I dunno bout anyone else but I tend to think of magickal energy as a measureable force, but it gets a bit confused when you start factoring in emotion and the effect it can have on energy and spells. Emotion isn't really energy (I don't think anyway, maybe it is!) but it seems as though it can have an affect on other energy as if it is sometimes. Maybe it's more like like a catalyst. Hmmmmm..... interesting - will have to consider this more carefully... Smile

Logmadr: I agree on both points (unusual for us, eh? lol). It wouldn't violate free-will if the person requested the spell, though, then it would be morally okay. Yes, I DO know that you knew that! lol.
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LunarCraft
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:53 pm

.... however, if the "target" or focus of the "love" spell was the person casting the spell for themselves to attract love, without specifying a third person ... surely that would not transgress the free will of another???

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong (again!!!) ... I know Logmadr and Aoife will not hold back if I have the wrong end of the stick (they accuse me of having Alzeihmers - lol)

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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:14 pm

You make us sound really harsh!!! (Really we are only MODERATELY so). Razz

Yeah, that wouldn't be violating free will either. Can be tricky not to let anyone in particular enter your head whilst doing the spell though. Smile

Personally I'd take a different approah though. Instead of using a spell to attract love (as there's a slight chance that could attract love from those around you who would be otherwise unwilling to give it. Depends on the details of the spell.) I think I'd focus more on allowing myself to be more receptive to any love that may be sent my way, then do a seperate spell to bring about opportunities for love. That way, the second spell gives 'fate' a push in the spellcaster's favour and the first prepares the spell caster mentally, so that they can make the most out of any opportunity given.

But that would be a spell to draw love into ones life rather than one to make the subject more open to the idea of love. The first spell part on it's own is I think, what you mean, Narada?

With that kind of personal spell, even if there IS one already in existance, I'll tend to write my own. It's not cheating to look at existing spells, find out what common themes run through them (ie - colours, actions, words) and use that as a model for your own - it's research! Spell writing is not for everyone, but I prefer to write my own. That way they are exactly what I want, from the heart and I know them inside out. If I don't have time to write a spell from scratch (which is unusual because obviously spells should be well thought over before being cast) I sometimes adapt an existing one - just change anything in it that doesn't feel right.

What about everyone else? (yeah know I'm introducing a new topic - sorry admin team!!!) Do you prefer to write your own spells, adapt one, use a prewritten one, or get somone else to custom make one for you? Or y'know, something else I haven't thought of. Smile
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:33 am

Aoife wrote:
What about everyone else? (yeah know I'm introducing a new topic - sorry admin team!!!) Do you prefer to write your own spells, adapt one, use a prewritten one, or get somone else to custom make one for you? Or y'know, something else I haven't thought of. Smile
I think it makes sense that someone new to any activity, skill, technique, etc. to observe or practice something that has already been done before. Taking what they have learned they will then modify it to suit themselves. Not always the case but it's ceratainly a logical route to learning imho.

For me this cycle of learning is endless so I continue to use both methods in most things that I do. What about the rest of you?
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:30 pm

Ok, an interesting side-debate has arisen here, the whole love spell thing. I'm sure this is being discussed elsewhere but I'll ask a couple questions here if no-one minds. Aoife you made an excellent point, if someone wanted to cast a love spell to open themselves up to love, but had someone specific in their mind, that would indeed violate free will. However, is there any way to request to whoever or whtever you're casting the spell to, to ignore any specific thoughts you may be having? Yes, I've just re-read that and I've worded it terribly and probably over complicated matters, but I'll leave it in the hope that someone can actually make some sense of my barrage of unintelligible gibberish.

In response to your other point I wouldnt dare write my own spells (bear in mind I'm hardly a veteran spellcaster though) for fear of including something- a red candle here, a dusting of rosemary there- that might bugger up everything and not only ruin the spell but possibly put me or someone else in danger. But am I over reacting? I'm taking Loggy's advice and assuming the worst lol.

Once again do keep your answers coming, I know this response was mainly aimed at Aoife but keep it going, damn I've managed to steer us all off topic!!!! lol
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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:21 am

lol. Assuming the worst is a good way to go, but you can be too cautious. I'm not suggesting you go off and try big spells if you don't feel ready, I'm just saying that if, for example, I always assumed the ABSOLUTE worst, I would be too afraid to EVER do a spell. My advice is if you decide at some point in the future to do a spell, close up all the loop holes so it is no way at all ambiguous, get someone else to read it through to check if you've missed anything, and remember that just because someone else has written their spell down in a book and sold it to you, or put iton their webste, it doesn't mean they are right. You don't have to be credible to be an author. Oh, and also include a way to undo the spell.

The love spell thing. If your spell uses words, then you can say out loud that you are not aiming the spell at a named individual, but leaving it up to God(dess)/fate/spirit/the universe/whatever to decide the person for you. That way even if you do accidently think of a person you hope for halfway through the spell, it shouldn't have an affect on the spell. The words said out loud (as long as you mean them) are like an affirmation, and would usually have more force than a half-formed semi-concious (spelling?) thought. I think. Very Happy

I write too much. Sorry, will try for shorter answrs in future! Smile
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:17 am

Excellent advice as always from Aoife. Smile

On the love spell point I'd just like to make an observation if I may. I don't know how they are meant to work; make others attracted to a person or make a person appear more attractive to others. The difference is distinct and a spellcaster's approach should bear this in mind imho.

Putting my beliefs on love and life completely aside, if I had to make a choice from the two options above on someone elses behalf then I would recommend the latter. The reason being if a person appears more attractive to others then it is reasonable to assume that interest in that person will increase from more people, which leads to further curiosity, which can lead to contact, friendship, relatioships, etc, etc, etc. I do not feel free will is an issue here because this is just about being noticed, allowing for a connection and the rest is natural.

The latter option focuses on individuals and imho imposes on free will as it is almost like forcing someone to do something they would not normally do. Not the ideal foundation for friendship or relationships.

I'm sure others will have many things to add, wether they differ or not with these opinions. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:45 pm

Ook! wrote:
Excellent advice as always from Aoife. Smile

On the love spell point I'd just like to make an observation if I may. I don't know how they are meant to work; make others attracted to a person or make a person appear more attractive to others. The difference is distinct and a spellcaster's approach should bear this in mind imho.

Why thank'ee. Smile

They can work either way depending on the spell. Many spells can be constructed in different ways depending on how you look at the task. (ie - a healing spell can either banish and weaken the illness or restore and strengthen health. Seeing the two perspectives can be very helpful - the first might be stronger during a waning moon, used for banishing, for example, whereas the second might be stronger during a waxing moon, used for summoning and increasing.)

I would agree that making yourself more attractive to others is far better, morally speaking, than making others attracted to you. The difference is, indeed, distict, because in one you are putting a spell on yourself and in the other you are putting a spell on those around you. I personally think think that violates freewill.

On a side note, this spell would be far easier to cast as well, and probably healthier mentally speaking as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:09 am

I have to agree with what was said here, there are no guarantees, BUT, there are things you can do to make it more likely that your spell will work. Like adding in correspondences. Do you spell in the appropriate moon phase, use approprite colours (for candles or crystals etc), use herbs, oils, crystals, do it on the right day, use a particular number (numerology) of candles/crystals/herbs/etc.

I also agree that love spells are not a good idea, when referring them to someone specific, however you can do a spell to draw a particular type of person into your life. I once did a spell for a friend of mine to attact a soulmate to her, but it was not directed at anybody in particular.

I sometimes use existing spells or adapt them, but often I write my own. One last thing, doing spells is kinda like that saying "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it", by that I mean that you need to be careful in the wording of your spell or you might just attact something that you hadn't intended.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:25 am

hello

i think there are a lot of good points here

and i think the one which hasn't been mentioned if you don't already know spells or any magic should be used as a last resort for anything you do otherwise people start to become dependent on it

live a magical life but not a solely magic life

if you get what i'm saying
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:40 am

A good point nosllew. I seldom actually cast spells and when I do its for a good reason. Also, when starting out on this path, I studied a lot and did a lot of research even before trying to do spells. They are not to be undertaken lightly
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:51 am

Hmmm, now this point I don't agree with:

Quote :
spells or any magic should be used as a last resort for anything you do otherwise people start to become dependent on it

live a magical life but not a solely magic life

I think if we weren't supposed to use magic for little things, why would we be given the gift? Most people get the idea that you can't use it for 'personal gain' from the TV series Charmed. That's ridiculous. I mean, yeah, it should be for need not greed, but it is NOT a last resort. If it was a last resort, how do you justify learning Tarot cards, runes, or any form of divination? No one ever NEEDS to know the future, but we still use the arts to try to decipher the mysteries.

And money spells? No one EVER needs to do a money spell, but it's not a bad thing if you try them. Think about it: it's not a last resort in any way shape or form.
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:14 pm

people who do money spells need the money hence why the do the spell

as for learning tarot or runes or any divinatory method there is nothing wrong in learning something that can aid you in a time of need

an example while your young you learn all forms of things in school some that you may not need for me as an example geography i really don't need to know the details of the map but it is gonna be handy if i need to read a map

divination tools or methods are there to aid us nothing more

and as for the personal gain remark we ask only for what we need nothing more as you said need not greed

so living a magical life doesn't mean you have to resort to it for every little thing
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:32 pm

I think maybe we should make a distinction between spells and magick here. In my opinion, while they are related, they aren't always the same thing. I don't do spells often, but do use 'mundane' type magic often. For example, I empower my food before eating it, I light candles when I meditate or use insense or music to relax, I use visualisation for protection and affirmations. I believe all these things to be a kind of magic, because I as a witch am doing them and believe them to be magic. Yes, they aren't circle casting spell magic, but magic nonetheless.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:38 pm

that brings me back to living a maigical life there is nothing wrong with lighting a candle while meditating or listening to music to alter your mood

what i ment was any form of divination, spell or ritual when not really needed is not really neccesary (magic should not be abused)
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:50 pm

Personally, I don't do spells or rituals unless I feel they are needed, but i often use divination to get answers or clarity on things, for myself and others. Sometimes, even when i'm not looking for answers, they come to me anyway, or I sometimes get warnings for people, so I can't really stay away from divination.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:52 pm

then that is something your spiritually drawn to not consciously choosing to do all the time
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PostSubject: Re: Any guarantees...?   Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

nosllew wrote:
then that is something your spiritually drawn to not consciously choosing to do all the time
I suppose so, in a way, but then one could also be spiritually drawn to magic and spells. Also, I choose to do divination a lot of the time as well.
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