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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:00 pm

StarlightTess wrote:
.... it makes multiple dimensions possible however we are just not at the correct vantage point to be able to see them.
I believe in multiple dimensions. I also believe that certain phenomena that are attributed to the paranormal can be attributed to either dimensional spillage or deliberate visitations.

StarlightTess wrote:
an harm none hmm an interesting one, tbh i don't think you can really do anything without it harming someone, when talking about this is it purely humans or is it extended to animals, if so all animals?? i mean your pretty much likely to step on some sort of insect when you walk on grass so does that mean you can't walk on grass incase you do harm??
From what I've read, the answer to this will vary from Wiccan to Wiccan. For example, some are very strict about it and will not even draw a drop of their own blood as part of a ritual so their views on animals may well mirror that extreme view as well.

StarlightTess wrote:
and with the questions it raises leading into more questions on such topics as free will, fate/destiny etc,
How is freewill or fate/destiny affected bu the rede in your opinion Tess?
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:32 pm

not the rede in particular but the intent vs outcome debate,
if it is intent only that matters then a bad outcome may be possible
if outcome only then you may have the worst intent in the world, both seem to rely on the fact that what is meant to happen will happen.
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:57 pm

I don't believe in predertimined destiny so the latter option is not something I personally could consider on this basis. It's not to say I could not debate other aspects of 'outcome' however my view of intent is such that it sort of negates the outcome argument anyway.

I do believe in the law of attraction which can lead to things happening which some people would call fate but even then this would be based on high probability rather than on any predetermination.It could be argued that if we are designed to have an attraction towards other people/activities/objects/etc then this design means there may well be an element of predetermination but not to the degree that all of our lives are prewritten, just important basic elements of them are designed to have a high probability of happening.

To me the intent is very important. Taken to the extreme if someone were planning to cause harm en masse but ended up coming up with a cure for all diseases, I would still lock the bugger up for trying it in the first place because he/she will probably try it again and may suceed the next time.

If someone tries to do good but ends up destroying the world the they may be a victim of an accident or something but such mass destruction being punished is still justifiable as the outcome far outweighs the good intent in the first place. Sad as it may be, justice needs to be weighed and the protection of the innocent far outweighs wether or not an outcome was good or bad.

This is my humble opinion anyhow.
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:50 pm

Just looking at some of the posts, some peoples writing is slipping, please remember not to use any text speak: use proper English...
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:44 am

i know this is an old post but i thought id throw in my ten penny peice i believe that it is not possable to cause NO HARM but choosing the lesser of two (evils) is what is ment or choosing non of them at all if im walking down a street and see a bloke hit his partner it is not my place to interfere as he himself has aimed himself in the firing line of some well deserved justice that dosent mean im wrong for letting her get hurt or for letting him hurt her it means that even if he doesn't beleive in the an ye harm none rule doesnt mean he wont get whats coming and in this process i have not hamed anyone with my choice yes we all step on bugs but when i do i apolygize and stay quite for a minuite as a sign of respect as for the whole intent over outcome thing you choose to do what you feel is right and then what happens happens if your a criminal then what you perceive to be right is obviously wrong and again i say they get whats coming if a good person makes a decision and somethig bad happens as a result again he will get whats coming but the punishment or karma is judged on the severity of both the decision made and outcome achieved.

Smile hope theres some tea left if not a black coffe be nice Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:15 pm

Quote :
if im walking down a street and see a bloke hit his partner it is not my place to interfere...


I always difficult to judge whether it is best to intervene when situations like this occur. For instance, I once saw a woman being hit by a man out of my window. I was immediatly shocked and unsure what to do. It continued to such a severe extent that i decided to phone to police. When I returned to the window with my phone, about to call the cops, they were kissing!! I REALLY don't understand some people!! In this case I probably would have caused more harm than good by interfering. However, I still think I would have been right to do so (having the police turn up could have even made her see how severely he was treating her, you never know!) However, as a matter of self preservation, I would not normally intervene in a physical matter involving fully grown men (unless it was someone really important to me, introvert as it may sound, it's true). On the other hand I have intervened and been involved in fights before when I think I have been completly justified in protecting others and personally I could not sit back and ignore it (the see no evil, hear no evil bit just don't wash with me!) Though I fully respect the karmic view point, I do not personally believe in it and therefore feel that if I didn't do anything, that person could get away with it (and if I'm wrong, they're still getting what they deserve).
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:19 am

ok the police bit sounds ok but i ment more me physically getting involved
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:52 am

I believe in karma but there is absolutely no hope in hell that I would ever choose to stand by and watch a man hit a woman, I would not care for reasons and I would not care if my interfering would be unwelcome. They can make the decisions of what to do after he's stop hitting her, if she chooses to go home with him or something after then thats her choice. I understand that you may not know the in and outs of their personal situation but either way by sitting there and thinking about it your making presumptions. Yes they could be partners (which doesn't make it alright by the way) but then again it could be a stranger beating her. Either way its wrong, and I would stop it.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:10 am

WHAT IM ABOUT TO SAY MAY UPSET SOME PEOPLE but i dont care really as im different now


i used to hit my wife she was my girlfriend at the time so i can say i know what it can be like for some of the men that do it in my case rosie new i had an anger problem and whatever i did to avoid confrontation didnt work and rosie new exactly what to say in order for me to lose control so it wasnt completely my fault in my case the blame is spread equally between me and my wife after i decided to go to anger management i found out a few execises to help and partially they did rosie can still today poke me in the right places but now im able to not let it rile me as much partly because of who i am now and the anger management so i know its not always his fault for his action not completely anyway.....

now if you read the whole thing you wil be pleased to know i have not laid a hand on my wife at least not like that in 2 and a half - 3 years now so i AM a chaged man from the very angry person i was and those of you who have met me will have noticed im more a dog on leesh now than a caged lion.

all in all my point is i woud not interfere unless it was to call the police as stated earlier thats the best idea as getting physiacally involved you do not know the background and its just as likely you will cause more harm the good

If your oppinion has changed about me then leave only your name in a pm so i wil know thank you
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Ook!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:31 pm

Nosllew, can I suggest that if you want to talk about anger management, the issues you and your wife had about it and your views related to that subject, that you start a new thread based on this? Although I think it's worth adding, I think if you do you will be setting yourself up for a pretty rough thread if you feel the need to start something tlike that imho. That's obviously up to you of course.

Anyway, back to the thread. I was pleasantly surprised to see this thread resurrected. When I first came to the forum I had no knowledge of Wiccan practices, As a matter of fact I had it completely confused with hedge witchery. Oops on my behalf. Anyway, the 'Do no harm' thing still appears to me to be completely subjective, based on each person's views, ethics and morals. based on this I think it's obvious that there is no definitive answer imho. To me, the bottom line is 'cause and effect'. If someone's actions or inaction are part of a domino effect of cause and effect then a certain amount of responsibility has to be accepted for that.
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Nos Llew-Blaidd
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:00 pm

Ook! wrote:
Nosllew, can I suggest that if you want to talk about anger management, the issues you and your wife had about it and your views related to that subject, that you start a new thread based on this?

i was using my personal experiance as an example to why i would not physacally interfere with another persons fight in the street and you are right cause and effect would be the underline behind the do no harm guideline
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Jaska
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:09 pm

hmm.... seems i havnt written anything here *feels left out*
behold my comment!!! Bag


egh i dont know what to write..... later! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:19 pm

ok....... for the seeing a fight side of things, i guess i would just watch. i wouldnt get involved myself...
not due to fear, otherwise that would be me running the other direction!
i guess i see it more as a sport for my eyes... i dont think of it as one, but my reactions draw the conclusion that it would be for me.
... i've also come to the realisation a few weeks ago that i would not care what happens to others, as harsh as it sounds, unless they were close to me, but even then, nothing in my life has happened around me for any reactions to occur. only the idea of something happening in the future.
but if i was to harm someone or something, even by accident... to gain something... i dont know what id feel.... only the anxiety of what happens to me soonafter.
in my world, karma does not exist as everyone else beleives, i control what happens every time - consciously or subconsciously.
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:37 am

Nosllew,
It is with great pride that I say how pleased I am that you choose to be so honest with us here. It takes a .............large person to cop to their issues they are not proud of. It takes a strong person to admit to having a problem...it takes an even stronger person to take care of that problem.
These things I speak of, I know much about.
I've been abuse in my life, not just by one man. But this we leave to another time and message. I'm proud of you for admitting to this forum that you have an issue, and you are or have in the past struggled with this and are learning and trying to continue to learn from your past. I too, if you look back have had discussions regarding "harm none". Having been in the position, my own anger issues from what I've lived come into play and I struggle often with how far I feel comfortable with taking that particular thread. Personally, I feel that I will harm NONE with my known actions. If I unwittingly hurt someone, I have to make that right. I also feel that we have the right as human beings to PROTECT ourselves and the innocent. I don't go out playing the superhero and help everyone I see getting hurt. I do however, Call assistance from Police or others in situations beyone my control. Even if it is anonymously. I will watch from a safe distance or incorporate others to assist if it is very serious. I also am not afraid to call in the Gods and Goddesses if the situation is more dire.
Trust your instinct. It is within you. You know what is right and wrong with the counseling you have been through. Basically, if it's going to hurt someone seriously, think about it. If they are hurting others, that karma SUCKS and will come back to haunt you as well if you don't do something, anything to help the innocent.
Just be cautious and learn to trust your judgement.
Remember one thing...............Bad people do good things............Good people do bad things. The good people remember to make the justice right in the long run and work to bring that good karma back to them and suck it up when they need to!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:24 pm

Well said Storm, well said. I Agree
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:21 pm

Excellent advice as always Storm. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:09 pm

This whole 'harm none' idea leaves me feeling a bit annoyed to be honest..I think its a bit of a dangerous assumption that we are capable of such harmonizing acts..thats the cynic speaking. Its a cute idea to me, but it looses credibility the moment you remind yourself that as far as our primal senses are concerned, we are still barely out of the jungle and to a large extent we are still working from the lower brain, the r-complex and limbic system, all of which deal with selfish motives, i think harming others is inevitable to a large extent..again, the cynic talking. Its always far too easy to 'butter up' the harsh reality with trite one liners and cute-sy phrases such as 'harm none' but i mean come on! think about how blood has been spilled since we started engaging in heavy industry, let alone how much blood has been spilled in the thousand years that we have existed in one form or another. On a more positive note, it is comforting to know that for us spirirtually inclined people, primal instincts are being recognised as outmoded in so much as how we live today as pagans/buddhists/witches/witches and even Christians.We CAN develop ourselves to truly love and respect one another, and on an individual level, we can achieve spiritual harmonization and subsequently 'harm none'..So harming none is a subjective vantage point more than a consensus reality or a universal law. we may view nature as peaceful, and try and be exemplas of that harmony, but the universe it hardly peaceful, its a non-sentient continuum,a savage beast! To make one further point, we humans have become masters of something i term 'radical rationalisation', we are always trying to justify our actions, and validate them against a set of norms..so the degree of harm is in the eye of the beholder, remember that terrorists dont believe they are terrorising, they believe they are patriots for their culture and country, and mayrtars, killing in the name of God...someting to think about i guess..good post

with light,

Fire Phoenix
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:48 pm

Of course the universe itself is not all fluffy and sweet, and neither are the beings which inhabit it but that is no reason not to strive for it. It's easy to become pessimistic when one looks at the turmoil that exists both on an earthly and spiritual level. However, if you except that peace/harm none are abstract ideas (such as perfection) that will never be achieved but it's purpose instead is to motivate the search for it a level of peace will be achieved.
When speaking of basic instincts then love and protection are just as much a part of this as anger and violence. As humans we are innately pack animals and are therefore designed to protect the other members of your pack. Anger and violence are basic instincts that are now unnecessary. They're purpose (to defend against predators) is no longer relevant and has therefore unfortunately lead to internal destruction. If you follow this stand point then we will eventually evolve past this aspect (if we don't destroy ourselves first). On the other hand though, if I were to be purely scientific and emotionally void, I would have to say that violence serves a very important role in survival. Will the continuing rise in population, without war and disease, we would destroy ourselves anyway.
I believe I have rambled too long and completely lost my point. Whoops! If anyone sees it could they please return it to behind this flower.... flower

P.S. One more random point on the perspective argument. We have discussed the perspective of the person committing the actions but not those who are affected. there are those people that enjoy pain being inflicted upon them. Would people's abstract ideas of 'harm none' stop them from performing this service (at this point, please leave out personal preferences, I really don't need to know geek , just using this as an example to express a possible loop-hole)
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