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LunarCraft
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:48 pm

hehehehe

We could all just agree to share the popcorn, watch the entertainment and leave the smooching till later!!! lol!

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Logmadr
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:55 pm

Done!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:05 pm

AGREED!

*brings a kettle, tea bags, milk, sugar and a spoon*

TEA ANYONE!?!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:07 pm

We've completely butchered this topic....

Yes, strong with 2 sugars...just like my women.....that doesn't work does it?

DAMMIT!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:09 pm

ROFLMAO!

Yes we have, and no it doesnt!!

Just like a butch lesbian maybe....or a docile bulldog...whichever you prefer....
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:19 pm

I'll have a tea - milk, no sugar (blah! to sugar).

That's what happens when the debaters have to go to work!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:03 pm

Do you know i completely forgot about the chain of causationa and your right.

i did mention that it was impossible to know everything and that therefore never acting would lead on a downward spiral. It is only a theory, unfortunatley that is the nature of all my philosophies in theory they should all work but it would require the total to the letter following from the entire population, one person can totaly destroy an ethical guide.

That is why i very loosley base it on utilitarian views. the flaws in that theory are numerous to say the least.

My idea on divination before an act of magic is to discover any major flaws in what you are trying to do, taking actions to the extreme would land us in the buttery fly effect and that is definatley a different post.

Do i hear the kettle, coffe pleas milk in before water and two sugars
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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:38 pm

Wow...all my debates seem to end this way: All the philosophers just say we don't know, and can never fnd out. Wooo!!!

Black Earl Grey please.

Unless you only have normal tea...

Lots of milk, not too strong and no sugar!
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Sabouki
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:04 pm

*hands out tea* evryone happy? No harm done? Good!
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Era Amunet
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:18 pm

ooh can I have some... or am I too late?
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:18 pm

Lol yeahmy debates tend to end like taht eventually, until someone mentions it again. But tahts what i love about a gooddebate, at the end of it i've always picked up a few new ideas to add to my head. Philosophy works great for me because nothing is concrete i can always change my mind trying to find something that fits perfectly.

By the by have done Plato yet, specifically his forms, if so then m,aybe the point of the Do no harm statement is just a the form of goodness that we should all be shadowing.

thanks for the tea, i think next time we might have to plan it a bit so there are brandy and cigars that would work out much better.
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:23 pm

Note to self: Add Brandy and Cigars to shopping list (ready for next mass debate!!)

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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:38 pm

We would look much more like professional philosophers (ie - sophisticated old men, apart from Vardy - have you seen those socks?!) if we had brandy and cigars. Maybe we should have dressing gowns and beards too - all the best philosophers have beards!

I haven't done Plato's forms for a very long time, that's the whole thing with the world of the forms where our souls come from, and they're just imprisoned in our bodies with the analogy of the cave, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:06 pm

something like that yeah.

the cave is used to illustrate that, if all we can see are shadows on a wall then taht is what we would consider the entire world to be until stepping out into this world. It shows taht what we have been looking at are mere shaodows of reality.

Plaos forms offers the idea that we are doing similar, what we see hear e.t.c are just shadows of the perfect entity. For instance forms state that if we see the form of beauty, every one would agree it is the most beatiful thing ever simply because i is. Fact. no personal feelings about it, and that everything we see and thinkn oh thats pretty or beatiful are just shadows. That is wht i was saying maybe there is a form of the perfect Do no harm, in which it is a logically viable and prfect set of ethical guidelines but we who dont inhabit the plane of forms can only try to emulate it by copying, it is just a shadow of that true form.

Plata was incredibly arrogant by saying that only a philosopher would ever be able to see these true forms only in momentary limpse because thwy search so hard for the truth. But thats another book,about his philosopher king and eventual self executed execution.

I hope i explained the forms fairly well its a bit difficult to explain, even plato used a whole book lol.

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LunarCraft
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:09 pm

Errr ... where's the tea and popcorn? scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:23 pm

*jumps up from the shadows with monumentous amounts of snacks and crockery*

HERE!
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Era Amunet
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:38 pm

Yay! Do I get some this time?
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:52 pm

of course! All is welcome! I make the best tea!
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:04 pm

So I've heard - I am ready!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:30 pm

Interesting debate Aoife and Zephron. Thank you. I enjoy a good debate as well but have deliberately avoided getting into anything too heavy on this forum.

I asked the question about doing no harm because although it is a core principal or guideline in Wicca practices, it does not appear to be particularly defined which naturally leads to a lot of subjectivity (as you have both pointed out). In one respect this will lead to debate and possibly even conflict with certain people that I have read about. On the other hand it is this non-specific approach that allows people to form their own opinions which is another reason I find Wiccan beliefs so fascinating. One thing I abhor is dogma and whilst there are certainly guidleines within the Wiccan belief system, it is appears to me to be nowhere near dogmatic, particularly when compared to belief systems such as christianity.

As a side point, I do not know if you are aware of this but there are actually over 400 (413 I think) commandments within the christian's old testament. Some are so daft that it is not surprising that the well known ten are the only ones that people ever mention. Did you know that you should be stoned to death for wearing clothing that comprises of two different fibres for example? Rolling Eyes Yers, well, I won't start ranting about the bible here - I might burn a hole in the forum! Rolling Eyes Shocked Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:37 pm

Lol i knew thre were some ridiculous comandments in the bible but that one is the best i'v heard.

What i love reading about is all the things that hve been ommitted or altered in he bible i find it fascinating. You know without the bible i think Christianity seems like a really nice religion, trust man to take a good idea and cock it up. lol

Dont sit out Ook get in there, rile some feathers, hell smack Aoife in the mouth if you want, i mite partake of some of that popcorn if this is going to get really interesting Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Zephron wrote:
Lol i knew thre were some ridiculous comandments in the bible but that one is the best i'v heard.
There's a lot more like that one I can assure you. Twisted Evil

Zephron wrote:
What i love reading about is all the things that hve been ommitted or altered in he bible i find it fascinating. You know without the bible i think Christianity seems like a really nice religion, trust man to take a good idea and cock it up. lol
Oral history, politics and a lot of very liberal cutting and pasting - that's what it is, and badly done at that. The fluffy, loving image of christianity keeps liberal christians from looking elsewhere imho, plus the fact it is not something they have been brought up to question y society. In truth, if they actually sat down and read it properly they would see how wrong that perception is on SO many levels unless they are fundamentalists of course, but then that would mean they would have to admit that the Earth is actually round, flat and is supported by four pillars (as the bible states).

Zephron wrote:
Dont sit out Ook get in there, rile some feathers, hell smack Aoife in the mouth if you want, i mite partake of some of that popcorn if this is going to get really interesting Cool

Ahh, well that assumes I have a lot of opposing opinions to one of the brightest spirits I have had the pleasure of meeting (albeit briefly). The fact is, I think that anything as open ended as the 'Harm none' guideline will lead to a vast variety of subjective views - as a deist it is something I am accustomed to as is is very much accepted by deists that with free will and reason comes many variations on any subject. As a result, on this matter, unless there was a particularly strong view that I really opposed (something accepted universally as truly 'bad') then I would not see anyone's opinion as 'wrong'.

Sorry to disappoint, but it does not mean you cannot enjoy your popcorn anyway. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:25 pm

oo i'm familiar with the cave illustration, however it came up in my a level physics class when we were discussing string theory and the fact that it makes multiple dimensions possible however we are just not at the correct vantage point to be able to see them.

an harm none hmm an interesting one, tbh i don't think you can really do anything without it harming someone, when talking about this is it purely humans or is it extended to animals, if so all animals?? i mean your pretty much likely to step on some sort of insect when you walk on grass so does that mean you can't walk on grass incase you do harm??

i'm very interested in the intent vs outcome part of this debate as to which is the more meaningful and which variable the wiccan rede applies to.
and with the questions it raises leading into more questions on such topics as free will, fate/destiny etc,

been a while since i've had a good debate, got a good one at uni on thursday about ethical issues of using animals in research, gonan be good Smile
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LunarCraft
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:19 am

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm ... popcorn and tea - a great combination. Thanks Sacha - that was great.

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Aoife
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PostSubject: Re: Do no harm   Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:05 am

Ahhh.... yes, the cave thing. It's all flooding back, which is good because today my philosophy teacher hinted we might be doing a lesson on revising Plato and Aristotle next week. So this discussion has pretty much halved my work load!

And don't smack me round the mouth! Not only would that negate the discussion we have just had (as whether you judge by intent or consequence, it's harmful) but also, it would probably hurt, dammit!!!
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